My main concern

The first mainline Harvest Moon game developed by Natsume. Nintendo 3DS. [ Game Guide ] JP release = None. NA release = Nov 2014. EU release = Jun 2015.
Nurse Fin
UNoT Extreme Mooomber
UNoT Extreme Mooomber
Posts: 5326
Joined: Apr 16, 2008 5:04 pm
Contact:

Post  Posted:

The GameCube can handle a lot more than the 3ds can, graphics-wise. I know the rendering resolution is a lot bigger too.

But as someone who loves Wind Waker I think it's a lot more stylish (and better proportioned) than this game is, I don't personally care for the designs in TLV but I won't say the graphics (models and textures) themselves have anything particularly wrong with them. I just don't like the aesthetic, and have to scratch my head at people who think it looks the same as SoS...
User avatar
NessEggman
Not the Eggplant Wizard
Not the Eggplant Wizard
Posts: 554
Joined: Jul 30, 2008 6:40 pm

Post  Posted:

centen wrote:I think it's a bit disingenuous to act like The Lost Valley's graphics are on the same level of quality as the Wind Waker's.
Image Image

The Wind Waker's graphics are a very distinct style, but were still rendered with excellent quality. Look at the difference in how smooth the ears are on Link, and how jagged they are on Claire. See how you can see each individual finger on Link, but Claire's hands are a blob? Even in the background, Link has a full, distinct shadow, and Claire is given a small blob, which doesn't make sense with where the light source is implied to be and how big her head/hair is. Even the circle in the metronome on LoZ is prettier than the circle on the happy face in TLV.

And keep in mind: Wind Waker was released in 2002, a full twelve years before TLV, and so managed to do more with worse technology available. It's the style that didn't resonate well with some people on LoZ, not the quality. If TLV was rendered to the same high quality that LoZ achieved, I don't think people would be complaining about the graphics as much.

I think the graphics also get a bigger focus, because it's such an obvious deficiency. The elements they are speaking to have the potential to be good, but considering how poorly ANB was localized, I understand people being skeptical of the promises made + the terrible graphics on top of it. For me, I think the direction Natsume wants to go in seems promising, but when an known -- not indie! -- company cannot even come close to maximizing the potential of the system in the wake of independent releases from tiny, unknown companies that show it can be done, and can be done well, like Shovel Knight, Steamworld Dig, and Gunman Clive... yeah, it's a bit worrisome.
But look at something like Pokemon XY compared to TLV.

Image

That looks just as pixelated with ugly textures and ugly models. Shadows are blobs or points or just non-existent.

Shovel Knight, Steamworld Dig, and Gunman Clive are 2D games, which are not as resource-intensive when it comes to rendering, so their graphics aesthetic can be pumped up more. Not to mention at least two of the screenshots you showed were for the PC or console versions of those games, which means they're on much more powerful hardware than the 3DS, and it had an option for higher resolution (and the GameCube also had amazing graphical capabilities and stronger hardware all around than the 3DS). Not to mention 3DS games that utilize the 3D feature must be knocked down greatly in graphical power because of the need to render twice as many screens.

The graphical quality of TLV is honestly not that much worse than big-name 3DS, 3D titles like Pokemon, but I think it's the lack of variety on top of an unappealing style that really bothers people. Most of the world is the same block over and over. There's nothing to break up the monotony. The fishing screenshot is nice because it takes a picture where there's a lot in the scene, but sometimes, the game just looks like a giant green square with a low-res grass texture on it, and that's so boring.

In this sense, your point holds -- WindWaker wasn't just a bunch of giant flat areas with no flavor. There were grasses, flowers, pigs, birds, trees, rocks, paths, etc. all of varying sizes and shapes and colors to break up the monotony that would otherwise just be a giant boring plane to walk on. And TLV doesn't have that.
User avatar
Nightlight
Custodian of Corn
Custodian of Corn
Posts: 465
Joined: Mar 10, 2014 3:10 pm

Post  Posted:

Yeah, I don't like the graphics very much either. At first they(along with the fact that there will be DLC for this game,)turned me off of the game completely(which was a rash decision on my part.)The heads are just so huge and, to me, on the creepy side, and the world doesn't look very appealing(but, from what little I've seen of them, the animals look cute.)Yet, after reading some stuff about the farming, I've become far more interested in this game then I used to be. Plus the characters seem to have some promise(or at least Tony does, imo,) so that's always nice :).

So, for me, while the graphics may look unappealing, a bit creepy, and I don't think I'll ever get used to the big heads, the gameplay is starting to sound really cool and I'll continue to keep my eyes on it and may buy it if reviews are good.

Also(on a side note,)who knows, maybe if this game sells well enough to get a sequel they'll improve the graphics for the next game :).


Edit:Hmm, now that it's been talked about a bit more and I look at it more closely(in a mental sense,)I think my problem with some of the character models is less of a big head problem and more of a small body problem. I honestly didn't notice the bodies too much until it was pointed out, but holy cow! Some of their bodies are really small looking to me(Yes, I'm that slow and blind :lol:.)They make some the heads look so much bigger by comparison(I've noticed that some of the characters have better proportions then others, and actually look fine, like Sam, I think that's his name, and Tony.) The older HM character models don't seem to have the big head problem for me because(like Nurse Fin said)the bodies were stocker. The only time I really noticed the heads in a older HM game was when I first saw the female MC of MM, and, even then, it was more because of how square-ish her head was rather then how big her head was, and I got more used to her square head after a while(though, in all honesty, I didn't play MM for long.)
I understand that the smaller bodies are probably just due to the style they're going for, but I can't help but think that(since they went with this type of style,)they should've gone more ToT/AP style when talking to people(instead of having 3D portraits, just zoom in on them a bit and have a text-bubble or something.)I think that would've made the models seem a lot less creepy to me.

(Sorry if I sound like or am being an idiot. I'm just putting down my opinion, whether it be stupid or not :).)
Last edited by Nightlight on Sep 29, 2014 4:47 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Guest
Anonymous Fish

Post  Posted:

centen wrote:I think it's a bit disingenuous to act like The Lost Valley's graphics are on the same level of quality as the Wind Waker's.
I get where you're going with the comparison, but... isn't it a bit disingenuous to compare a completed game (WW) to a screenshot from a very early game build (LV) :?:
User avatar
NessEggman
Not the Eggplant Wizard
Not the Eggplant Wizard
Posts: 554
Joined: Jul 30, 2008 6:40 pm

Post  Posted:

Nightlight wrote:Also(on a side note,)who knows, maybe if this game sells well enough to get a sequel they'll improve the graphics for the next game :).
Ah this reminded me. We also shouldn't forget that this game probably doesn't have nearly the same budget or team size as a game like WindWaker or any of the other games it's being compared to. A small team, probably relatively small budget, limited hardware... the game is going to look a bit bad. Graphics are probably the most difficult part of game development to perfect, and it costs a lot of money and requires a lot of really great artists to get them to a really stunning level.

Honestly, thinking about it, I think this game looks pretty decent considering where it's coming from. The art style is still ugly to me, but the quality is not bad.
Guest
Anonymous Fish

Post  Posted:

It looks like the game at least has it's own style and is trying to do something new, which the HM series needs. The games have really plateau'd in quality/improvements recently. I don't see why people are so much more excited for SoS which looks like a bland rehash of ANB which was one of the worst games to date.
User avatar
Cherubae
UNoT Dictator
UNoT Dictator
Posts: 8610
Joined: Sep 28, 2000 7:12 pm
Contact:

Post  Posted:

Image

Image

Image

OMG Their heads are SO BIG! TERRIBLE GRAPHICS! That old man looks like he's going to tip over on his faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace!

It's in the style of the older Harvest Moon game. Characters are going to have big heads, as that is the intention.

Less marriage simulation, more farming simulation. The marriage candidates should not be hot or sexy; you can wet-panty all you want over Marvelous' Bokumono series if that's your fancy. :lol: That's not what this version of the series is about.

I don't have a problem with Lost Valley's graphics *shrug* Looks perfectly fine to me.
Guest
Anonymous Fish

Post  Posted:

Cherubae wrote: OMG Their heads are SO BIG! TERRIBLE GRAPHICS! That old man looks like he's going to tip over on his faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace!

It's in the style of the older Harvest Moon game. Characters are going to have big heads, as that is the intention.

Less marriage simulation, more farming simulation. The marriage candidates should not be hot or sexy; you can wet-panty all you want over Marvelous' Bokumono series if that's your fancy. :lol: That's not what this version of the series is about.

I don't have a problem with Lost Valley's graphics *shrug* Looks perfectly fine to me.
I remember when HM was a game about farming and not waifus and husbandos.

For having such a devoted HM fanbase not many people here seem to realize what made this series great in the first place.
Nurse Fin
UNoT Extreme Mooomber
UNoT Extreme Mooomber
Posts: 5326
Joined: Apr 16, 2008 5:04 pm
Contact:

Post  Posted:

I dunno, I think the proportions in the old HM games were different because the characters were built so much stockier (check out that rear on Magical Melody farmer, he could probably use it as a shelf). TLV has more of a huge-round-head-tiny-bodies thing going on. I mean the shoulders are significantly narrower than the heads, for most of the characters. It's definitely a certain kind of style, I just don't find it as personally appealing.

And I don't see what talking about the art style has to do with "waifu and husbandos"
User avatar
Night Owl
Tubular Turnip Farmer
Tubular Turnip Farmer
Posts: 388
Joined: Jun 03, 2014 11:44 pm

Post  Posted:

I don't mind chibi graphics, it's just the proportions that are throwing me off in certain character models like Catherine. The stick-like bodies that still have the curves is what creeps me out to an extent. They look fine in the official artwork, it's just how they've translated that into the game that makes it look creepy. I love Magical Melody's graphics because it was so cute. Everyone was so small and chubby. Although it certainly creeped my mother out when I told her about the marriage aspect of the game and she told me something along the lines of: "Your character looks like a child. It seems wrong." Chibi graphics are rather polarizing when it comes to games in my experience. Either you love it or you hate it. Besides, graphics are always a topic in any form of game discussion... TLV is no exception to that. Especially considering that the character models are front and center with those 3D portraits.

And where did the "waifu/husbando" thing come into play? I don't think anyone mentioned Azumanga Daioh in this thread...
User avatar
LeBurns
Ultimate Farming Fanatic
Ultimate Farming Fanatic
Posts: 1329
Joined: Sep 26, 2011 10:48 am

Post  Posted:

Well I like the curves and bumps on the 3D models myself. For once I may feel like I'm not hitting on a twelve year old. Granted the fact that other parts are so out of proportion can look odd I guess.

Just once someone has to make a HM game with 3D models like those used in Conception 2. Those were actually very well done for a 3DS game.
User avatar
Cherubae
UNoT Dictator
UNoT Dictator
Posts: 8610
Joined: Sep 28, 2000 7:12 pm
Contact:

Post  Posted:

Night Owl wrote: And where did the "waifu/husbando" thing come into play? I don't think anyone mentioned Azumanga Daioh in this thread...
I believe it was sarcasm based on the fact that the Bokumono series has become more of a marriage simulation game with a farming aspect than the original farming simulation game with a marriage aspect. That's my take on it compared to the games we played 14+ years ago.

Funny thought, many of the series players haven't been alive long enough to know what the game was originally like (There's no marriage in the virtual console HM GBC1?! WHAT?!). Perhaps they anticipate a marriage micro-management game that they're more familiar with, and then get thrown for a loop when a game comes out that is similar to the original series. Pre-Wada vs. post-Wada, I guess.

I always get surprise replies when I'm asked who my favorite bachelor/bachelorette is, and I tell them that I don't have a favorite because I prefer to stay single in the game, only getting married to complete parts of the guide that need it. The games aren't about waifus and husbandos to me.
User avatar
NessEggman
Not the Eggplant Wizard
Not the Eggplant Wizard
Posts: 554
Joined: Jul 30, 2008 6:40 pm

Post  Posted:

While the execution and way marriage is focused on has changed, the game has always been intended to be about character interaction rather than management simulation. Wada wanted the game to be relaxing and easy, and wanted the focus to be on human interaction and relationships. That was his original dream/goal for Bokumono. The SNES game didn't have much of it -- or really much of anything -- because of budget cuts and time restraints. It was pretty much two guys working overtime to rush out the game way before it was finished. It was nothing like what he wanted.

HM64 (Bokumono 2) was a lot closer to his image in which there were such a large variety of character events and festivals that gave the player a bigger feel of living together with others in a rural setting. The farming was still pretty dull and not upgraded much at all from HM on SNES. They added sheep and some aesthetic improvements to your farm, and a hothouse. That's about it. But the character interaction was beefed up a LOT. The marraige system was added to with lots more events, heart meter, rivals, etc. and characters in general were added to with all kinds of character events (including even
Spoiler:
character death
) and tons of new interactive and interesting festivals. The small upgrades to farming tended to play into the interaction with people/town, like animal-based festivals.

You can see the evolution even more in Save the Homeland (Bokumono 3) in which the focus was taken further off the farming simulation and almost entirely placed on human interaction. The game revolved around befriending and getting to know villagers and the story was the main focus. Marriage was ditched in favor of stronger human interaction elements. Farming actually lost complexity from HM64 for the most part -- no sheep anymore, only 4 types of crops, no hothouse and barely any home extensions, etc. The changes to simulation systems, like the addition of cooking, were not management-intensive and were focused again on interaction with people. You couldn't sell 90% of the things you cooked, but people liked receiving cooked goods. People again got upgrades in this game: now they reacted differently to specific items more (instead of mostly just being tiered items with generic thank yous, though that still existed), tons more character events, more elaborate cutscenes, variations on tons of scenes based on your affection level with various characters, story-driven gameplay, multiple endings to the game, and romantic kiss scenes, etc.

The GB games were cash-grab spinoffs created with limited hardware and budget, and Back to Nature was originally intended to be a direct port of HM64 that ended up getting warped into something else outside of the original creators' supervision.

After that, Wonderful Life's focus on family drew in a new wave of fans who were interested in the family life and marriage aspects of the game, since it was a heavy focus.

The game has always been intended to be and largely focused around character interaction and simple living, not time/resource management and simulation.

And while the appeal of marriage has gone up in the games, and marriage candidates are now a huge selling point for each installment, I still feel like management and simulation seems to take priority in the actual game design anymore. Marriage and interaction is probably one of the least developed features in the game -- it stays the same between every game, the characters are always flat, and the spouses are always emotionless trophies. Character events outside of marriage candidates have become nearly non-existent. I already know what to expect from the marriage and character aspect of every game before playing it. But the farming simulation is always varied and new and interesting with a lot more detail added to it.

Just because fans talk about the characters a lot and seem to focus on the marriage doesn't mean the games necessarily do. Maybe in their advertisement, but the development is never focused on marriage. I've been playing since the SNES and have always been a member of the fandom and fans have ALWAYS placed a high value on the marriage no matter how it was implemented in the game. I think because even from the first game, to a lot of players, the idea of a game allowing you to woo and marry a girl of your choice was interesting and unique. Simulation games were not that popular on consoles at the time, and the few that were were intensive management games like SimCity. A relaxed simulation game that allowed you to date and marry was extremely novel to console game players, and the marriage part was the most unique and interesting part of the game because of that.

But yeah. The game has become more focused on farming over time. The original intent of the classic games was to be on characters. Fans have always been into husbando/waifu with these games.
User avatar
LeBurns
Ultimate Farming Fanatic
Ultimate Farming Fanatic
Posts: 1329
Joined: Sep 26, 2011 10:48 am

Post  Posted:

Nice post NessEggman.

I wonder when they'll finally bring a game like LovePlus to N/A so those that want relationships can have a game and HM can be about farming. I think the fact that there is nothing like LP in N/A (though Conception 2 came close) is why the N/A focus so much on that ... they really have nothing else. If it was like Japan where there were a lot of social only games I think that focus on HM games would wane.
User avatar
NessEggman
Not the Eggplant Wizard
Not the Eggplant Wizard
Posts: 554
Joined: Jul 30, 2008 6:40 pm

Post  Posted:

Konami actually tried something similar once. They created a really miserable PSP game called Brooktown High for western audiences -- it was meant to be a sort of western-style counterpart to Tokimeki Memorial (their popular love simulation series before Love Plus). The game failed horribly, but this was mostly due to the fact that it was on PSP (not that audience that would be playing that kind of game!) and it was not nearly as engaging or interesting as Tokimeki Memorial. They had the game developed by Backbone, which is a couple small studios that produce mediocre sequels and movie license games and stuff.

This failure helped scare away the chance of localizing something massive like Love Plus or Tokimeki Memorial, as those games are intensive in not only text but cultural reference (so it would be a very costly endeavor to do so).

Personally I think that kind of game could find a really strong cult following in the west -- people love games like Persona 3 and 4 which have a heavy friendship/dating aspect to the game and a lot of Japanese cultural references (Atlus simply keeps everything fairly literal, which seems to work fine for their fains). Plus the dating aspect of games like Harvest Moon is indeed popular here, too, as we've established lol.

I really think it could be popular. Perhaps it's up to indie developers to take that risk and make love simulation games that are as high-quality and fully-featured as something like Love Plus and make a breakthrough hit in the west first.
Post Reply