This is a guide for marriage and confessions (becoming lovers) in RF4. It's quite a tricky process at times, so I wanted to help those that are having some issues with it, or just need some general information on basic wooing practices.
Please read in its entirety before posting questions, thanks!
I call them sub-events in my guide because that is what they were called in the Japanese version, but they are also known as "town events" in the English version. Same exact thing, different wording.
Dating! (AKA Confessions)
So, you want to start dating? Here are the things you need to do to trigger bachelor/ette confessions!
How to begin 1. Get your lover's love points (LP) up to 7 or higher 2. I suggest saving your game at this point before you ask them. 3. ALSO check and see that you haven't triggered a sub-event that they are a part of. If you have, finish it first. I'd personally finish ANY sub-event that are currently activated, just in case. To check and see if you have a sub-event active, go to your diary (save point in your room) and check and see if there is a "town event" option. If there is, then you have a sub-event active. Click on it to see the name and which characters are involved. 4. Everything good so far? Now it's confession time! 5. Press the BTW button (R-trigger button) while talking to your candidate of choice and choose the "I love you!" option
General notes -You can NOT break up with them after you've successfully completed the confession event, so choose your lover/s wisely! -Yes, you CAN have more than one lover at the same time. No penalties to LP. -If you are dating more than one person at a time and you get married, your other lovers will automatically go back to being friends with you. No hard feelings, negative comments or LP decreases. -You can only start wooing Doug AFTER you finish the second arc/plot in the game. Don't waste your gifts on him, because his LP will NOT increase.
Not taking you seriously and rejecting your advances? You have a few options! 1. Reset. Yeah, I'm serious. It's a pain in the « Mr.Gourmet's hat », but it's far easier this way to try again (what I wouldn't give for a load option in this game) 2. Keep trying. Every.single.day. I know, I'm sorry 3. If all else fails (and what works best for me personally), is to raise the character’s LP to a higher rank. So lets say you’re at 7LP.. get to the point where you have just a sliver of LP left to get to the next level up, talk to them/give them a gift which will raise it to 8LP, THEN ask them out. They seem to accept more often when you just hit a new heart level. Save before you hit the next LP level up, and it seems to work more often than not, but it’s NOT a guarantee. 4. Rinse and repeat until you finally succeed 5. Yes, it could actually take you until 10LP or higher to activate the event. You just have to keep trying! There are people who have had 0 lovers and it's taken them all the way up until 10LP. It's COMPLETELY random.
WHEN THEY ACCEPT 1. They will tell you to meet them the next day at 10:00 at the plaza. DON'T MISS IT. They will not be happy with you at all! (No decrease in LP though if you do forget to go) 2. Meet them and choose the positive answers, and you should be good to go! 3. IF you triggered the confession, and DO NOT want them to be your lover, just choose the negative options, or the "I was just kidding!" ones. It'll break their heart though. Good job D: (No decrease in LP)
Dates -After you become lovers, you can now go on dates! 1. Dates are absolutely the most efficient and best way to increase LP. It is painful to increase by just gifts/talking, so make sure to go on a lot of dates! 2. To ask boyfriend/girlfriend out on a date, talk to them and use the BTW button then say that you would like to go on a date. 3. If they accept, they'll want to meet you the next day at 10:00 at Selphia plaza. Just like for the confession, if you accidentally forget or miss it, it will NOT decrease LP. 4. You can choose the meeting place (Porcoline's restaurant, Observatory, Blacksmith shop, General Store, your room, Florist's shop, Airship and Lake) or let your lover choose. 5. If they don't accept, then you either have a sub-event in process that they are a part of or just don't want to come on that day. Try again the next day (after you finish the sub-event first!) 6. When you go on the date you'll have the option to get "closer" to them at the end of it. At first you can only choose one or two options, but as you go on more dates you'll unlock more (hold their hand, etc). 7. If you go to the general store you'll have the option to buy boyfriend/girlfriend a gift! (each with different costs) that they'll end up keeping in their bedroom. At the florist you can buy them a flower too! At the blacksmith, they'll end up giving you a random accessory at the end of it.
IF YOU ARE HAREMING YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A BAD TIME. MAYBE. UNLESS YOU'RE ONE OF THE LUCKY ONES So I previously had some percentages down for succession rates while hareming, and I've heard from multiple people that they seem to be a tad bit inaccurate, so I've edited out this information for accuracy. If anyone has some updated percentages, let me know please and I'll add them! Generally, it's going to get harder the more lovers you get, and this is going to be the case with the vast majority of people, so you're going to just have to be patient if you're one of the (many) unlucky ones.
Before you begin, you need to: 1. Be dating the character you want to marry, and have their heart level to at LEAST 10LP. This is for both bachelors and bachelorettes. 2. Go on at least 3 dates 3. Have the person's friends/family at a respectable FP. For example, if you're wanting to marry Dolce, have Jones at Nancy to at least 3-4. It isn't 100% known if this helps, but it's better to be safe than sorry. 4. Make sure you are at the right part of the plot for your respective lover ***Arthur, Clorica, Vishnal, Forte, Kiel, Xiao Pai, Amber and Margaret should all be able to be married off during the first plot/arc of the game. ***Dolce/Leon/Dylas cannot be married until the beginning of the 2nd arc. (Thanks to runefactor for finding out that Amber CAN be married before the 2nd arc) ***Doug cannot be married or even wooed until AFTER the 2nd arc is completed. -Finish the prerequisite sub-events for the character you wish to marry. This is the part people have the most trouble
-If you are playing as Lest, you need to have a double bed and engagement ring. 1. To get a double bed, you need to buy the order (using your prince/ss points) for Blossom to sell furniture. She will then sell the double bed. The bed costs 30,000g, 80 wood and 40 stone. 2. Engagement ring is a level 20 accessory that you need to craft using the workbench. Materials to make it are 1 iron (or bronze) and 1 amethyst (or aquamarine). You should be able to get the recipe from Eliza after you've gone on 3 or more dates. 3. If you are planning on marrying Xiao Pai, you don't need an engagement ring, as she is the only bachelorette with a reverse proposal during her marriage event. Just accept it and you'll be good to go! If you want to be the one to propose, turn her down during the marriage sub when she proposes, and propose to her with the engagement ring. 4. If you are marrying Clorica, you'll need to have the engagement ring DURING the event, as it'll prompt you for it. If you want to turn her down, give her one of her loved gifts (apple pie, etc) 5. If you are marrying any of the other bachelorettes, just propose to them using the engagement ring after their marriage sub-event ends.
-If you are playing as Frey, you're a lucky devil. You don't need a double bed or engagement ring! 1. All of the bachelor events end in a reverse proposal, so you don't need to do anything but accept it. 2. IF you want to be the one to propose to them, turn them down during their marriage event, craft an engagement ring buy a double bed and propose to them (after the event ends) instead.
***I have all of this done, why is the marriage event not activating?!*** Most likely you haven't activated the prerequisite sub-event. All characters have at least one or more sub-event's that are needed to be seen before their marriage event will trigger.
The bad news? It's COMPLETELY RANDOM. Yes, you heard me right. More bad news? They DON'T even specify in-game which ones are mandatory, so it's kind of like finding a needle in a haystack. Ready for more bad news? Even after you've seen the prerequisite event, you'll have to more than likely wade through MORE sub-events before it actually triggers. Everything is random!
Prerequisite sub-events that have been found by the community
(Credit for many of these goes thanks to: Kaze Blog) ~Thanks to runefactor for the updated list in English!
Bachelors: Leon: A Day in Leon's Life
Dylas: Smile Practice
Arthur: Don't forget your physical! Eyeglass Mania
Kiel: The Knight's Steed A Part-time job!
Vishnal: Don’t fall for it, Vishnal!
Doug: Doug's Secret Shiny Memories
Bachelorettes: Margaret A Performance Without An Audience A Favor Repaid A Porco and an Elf Thoughts Lost in the Lake
Clorica Get It Together!
Amber Introducing Amber Watson
Forte The Knight's Steed
Xiao Pai Oh no, it's contagious! A Cooper's Windfall
Dolce The Running Sign
Sometimes you get lucky and trigger them all in succession and sometimes it'll take you forever. Sorry. It's like winning the lottery. That is seriously the only thing you can do.. no one can help you out with it or give you advice. It's random. It'll happen eventually, you just need to brace yourself that it might take a long time.
Tips and tricks for activating sub-events Sub-events are tricky jerks but there are a few ways you can.. sort of trigger them more often.
1. First way and most complicated way, is to take the characters into your party that you want to trigger the event for. Say you want to trigger Leon's "A Day in the Life of Leon" prerequisite marriage sub-event, so what you would do is take him into your party and sleep over and over.
-IF he ends up leaving in the morning due to "having to do something else", most likely you've triggered an event that has him in it. This way kind of sucks, because you pretty much are time skipping.
-You need to make sure that you've harvested all your crops, etc.
-Do this over and over until you've triggered the events needed.
-If I've slept like 7-14ish days and nothing has happened, I do one of two things: resetting and trying again OR going and talking to all of the townspeople. What happens is that sub-events don't usually show up in your diary (town events) sections until you actually go and talk to the townspeople, so you've probably triggered an event but don't know it yet. (Meaning that if you have Leon in your group and another event triggers, he won't leave because he's not a part of it). Also, sometimes there are mini-sub events that will NOT show up in your log, but you'll have to enter buildings/walk around town to activate them, so be sure to try that too. Make sure to talk to Margaret (as Frey) and Doug (as Lest) to make sure they aren't inviting you to a sleepover event that night. This works for ALL sub-events, not just ones needed for romances.
-Rinse and repeat
2. Second way submitted by ~sneaselfish~ -
First, you have to get a guy (also works for bachelorettes of course) to agree to start dating you. ANY dude will do, even if you don't plan to go after him. Once a guy has become your boyfriend, you can try to ask him out everyday using the BTW option while talking to him. Sometimes though, the option to go on a date will not appear at all. This usually happens if the next day would be the day before a scheduled festival(so a festival in 2 days). This will always happen so don't worry. What you want to do is to keep checking for this option and have it not come up when the next day ISN'T THE DAY BEFORE A FESTIVAL. If you can't choose to go on a date and a festival ISN'T happening in 2 days, then the next day A RANDOM EVENT IS SCHEDULED TO ACTIVATE INSTEAD. This can be EXTREMELY useful to know as the 3rd Arc of the game can only be started by its specific random event, so if you're trying to activate it(or any other random event you may want like a marriage event) then you can force the event to happen. Just save that night and start the next day and check what event activates. If you get the wrong event, or none at all(the game CAN pick an event you aren't able to do or already did, resulting in nothing happening that day), then simply reset and try again. If you want an event with a specific character and they have a high enough friendship with you to stay with you at night, then invite them, sleep and see if they tell you they have to leave for something the next morning, meaning you've started an event with them.
2. Third option, is make sure that there are no sub-events triggered already, save your game and then talk to every single person in the town. The next day, talk to all of the villagers again and go to the Selphia plain, and then go back and check your diary and see if there's an event triggered. If not, reset the game and try again.
3. Last option is to just leave it up to fate and have patience..play like you normally do and cross your fingers that you'll be able to activate them in a timely manner. For those like Meg who have more sub-events than normal that need to be activated before seeing their marriage event, it might end up being way more difficult.
4. Be careful to not go on TOO many dates or have too many festivals activated (cancel a few of them if you must) because they could potentially block sub-events from triggering.
Names of the actual marriage events (So you know when you've triggered it!) Bachelors
Talk with Forte and she will talk about how things cannot remain the way they are. She will also mention Vishnal. Go talk to Vishnal. He will mention that he is worried about Forte and so is Clorica. Go talk to Clorica. Clorica says Forte has been staring into space a lot recently. Go talk to Forte again.
The next day go talk to Forte again. Forte decides to leave town for awhile to focus on training. She will then prepare to leave. Later that day go to your room and Forte will stop by. After that Forte is gone and Lest will decide to ask around to try and figure out where the dojo Forte intends to visit is. Talk to Kiel and he'll tell you about a hut near Obsidian Mansion. Go there and from there move down one area. You'll get another scene with Forte. After the scene is over talk to her. You will then have to fight a pack of monsters. They have a couple thousand HP so they can be pretty strong depending on your level and which difficulty you're on. After the fight Forte will say that she can't return yet. Go back to town and at the gate you'll get a scene with Bado. It turns out Kiel is sick and Bado wants Lest to go tell Forte about it. Go back to where Forte is and talk to her. You and Forte go to the clinic where Kiel is resting. After the scene talk to Bado (you might have to talk to Forte first then Bado).
The next day Kiel will be released from the clinic. He just leaves and goes back to his normal schedule and I think that's all that happens.
The day after that talk to Forte again and she will mention that she is worried about Kiel. Kiel and Vishnal seem to be hiding something from her. Talk to Kiel and Vishnal. They don't say much about it.
The next day (or maybe you can get it in the same day I just got it the next day) walk towards Forte's house when Forte and Kiel are inside you'll get a scene. Kiel runs off. Talk to Forte and the two of you will go on a walk to her training ground. The two of you go but right outside of town you run into Bado. After that scene you can head to the place near Obsidian Mansion. When you are there another scene will happen. During the scene Bado interrupts to tell Forte Kiel collapsed again. Before you can head to town there is another fight so again make sure you are prepared. Forte leaves to go see Kiel at your urging but Bado stays to help fight. After the battle you and Bado can go back to town. Forte will be outside the clinic. Talk to her. After your go inside the clinic and you'll get a scene with Vishnal where he apologizes and leaves. Talk to Kiel after that. Once you're done talking to Kiel talk to Forte when she is in her house. Vishnal will then come and explain what has been going on with Kiel. AFter that scene Forte will step out for some fresh air. She'll go to the lake in town. Go talk to her and she'll invite you back to the training grounds. Go with her and you'll talk some more. Forte will get sad and run off. Go back to town and talk to Bado. Choose to ask about Forte and Kiel. You'll get a letter left by Forte's father and a key. Talk to Forte and Kiel and ask them both what the key might be for. They each give you different answers so you have to go ask Bado about it. He tells you about the hut near the Obsidian Mansion. Go back there again. Enter the hut and examine the back wall. You'll find some scribbles that look like a map. Read the map and it tells you to go south from the hut. Go to the place where Forte kept going to train and you'll be able to examine the center of the area. You'll find a music box and you can use the key to open it. You find Forte's mother's journal inside and read some of it. You then go back to Forte's house and give it to her.
The next day speak with Forte and then go to the Dragon Room in the castle. After the scene talk to Forte. After that the event is over and you can propose to Forte if you've completed her other events.
Margaret - Being Here Walkthrough guide thanks to Googabooga -
Event Participants: Margaret, Porcoline
It starts with people talking about a Siren seen outside of town. Talk to some people and then talk Meg who will ask you if you've heard about the rumor (if she doesn't ask you about it try talking to some more people). She will decide to check it out and you can let her go or choose to go with he (I said I'd go with her). Leave town with her and yMeg will keep telling you which way to go each time you enter a new screen until you end up at the lake that is always summer. Once you're at the lake you'll get a scene where Meg talks about the "Memories Thrown Into the Lake" event. She then talks about life in the Elven kingdom. After the two of you leave the Siren shows up, it was there the whole time just hiding.
The next day go to Meg's house when she's there and you'll get another scene. She will ask you to leave her alone. Go talk to Porco. The two of you will talk and Porco will ask if you are willing to love Meg even it there will be pain (I said yes). Then the two of you go to see Meg. A scene happens that ends with Meg running away. After that scene Porco will ask you to help Meg (I said I would). Leave town and you'll find Meg she runs away again. She goes back to the summer lake. When you get there a short scene happens. It ends with Margaret being attacked by the siren and now she can't talk. Nancy asks you to talk to people around town to try and figure out if anyone has any ideas to help Meg (she says she will tell everyone about what happened so why doesn't Nancy just ask them for ideas since she's talking to them anyways XD). Talk to people and when you've gotten enough info Lest will suggest going to speak to Kiel since he is compiling the info together. It turns out the Siren was given a nickname by a man who was friends with her. He named her ”Audy". Meg insists the two of you go back to her house. Once there you get the bottle you found during the "Memories Thrown Into the Lake" event. You have to go back to the lake. You get one final scene and Meg gets her voice back. After that the two of you go home and her sub event ends. Now you can propose to her if you've met the other requirements.
Xiao Pai - Never Gonna Give Up! Walkthrough guide thanks to Twizbuck -
For Xiao, you do not need an engagement ring if you accept her proposal.
Starts with talking to Xiao.
Speak to Kiel.
When Xiao is upstairs at the Bell Hotel, go upstairs, speak to her, and then go downstairs. (This was my experience. I think you can simply walk in the front door after a bit and trigger the next part.)
Go into Porcoline’s Kitchen.
Go to Bell Hotel
Head to the bridge to the Water Ruins
Go back to Bell Hotel
Bell Hotel once more, talk to Xiao
Speak to Blossom
Speak to Xiao, then go to Porcoline’s Kitchen
Go to the balcony outside of Bell Hotel
Make your way up to the second floor and speak to the man by the stairs
Talk to Xiao
Back to Bell Hotel to speak with the man by the stairs on the second floor again
Go to the place you know Xiao will be
Escort her back to Bell Hotel
Dolce - Language of Flowers Walkthrough guide thanks to alys
This is a long event. It took me 10 days but I think it can be done in 9. It took me around 2 hours to finish and that was with seriously abbreviated days.
Day 1: It begins with Kiel, though he's not listed as a participant. I'm not sure what exactly set this off but I found him in the center square one morning and began a conversation about a "charm" that's supposed to ensure a happy family (the charm is writing your names on the tower at Leon Karnak.)
Day 2: Speak to Dolce about the charm. There will be a three-way conversation between you, her and Pico.
Day 3: Speak to Dolce again and suggest you go check to see if her name and Pico's are still written at Leon Karnak. She'll want to go immediately. Once you leave town a scene will begin between Dolce and Nancy.
Once you get to Leon Karnak check out a spot at the foot of the tower. A scene with Dolce and Pico begins. When it's over agree to take Dolce home, specifically all the way back to her room.
Speak to Dolce in her room and watch another scene between her and Nancy.
Day 4: Go to the clinic. Watch a scene with Nancy and Jones regarding flowers. When asked about flowers answer, "Moondrop." (During this seen you can take some moondrop flowers to give to Dolce later to remind her of her past but it doesn't seem to be strictly necessary.)
Day 5: Speak to Dolce/Pico and they'll mention that Nancy and Jones wanted to go to Leon Karnak as a family.
Day 6: Go to clinic and watch another scene (Nancy collapses). You'll stay with Nancy while Dolce goes for Jones. Speak to Nancy and leave after Jones arrives.
Day 7: Go to clinic and speak to Nancy. Then speak to Dolce. Go with her to see Nancy. Watch the scene then speak to Dolce again.
Day 8: Speak to Dolce: give her advice on how to make up with Jones and Nancy.
Day 9: Go to clinic, speak to Dolce. Watch the scene that begins. Follow Dolce when she runs downstairs. Speak to Dolce. A scene will begin with her and Pico.
When Dolce leaves the clinic speak to Pico. Then go find Dolce. Hold her hand. Go back to the clinic with Dolce so she can apologize to Nancy and Pico. Speak to Nancy.
Head out of town to find Pico. Forte will show up and there will be a scene. Go to Leon Karnak. Watch scenes. (Once they're all done you could probably propose then but I waited till the next day.)
Day 10: Locate Dolce, give her the engagement ring. She'll insist you actually propose. Once she says yes, you're off to your wedding ceremony. Congrats.
Amber - Gratitude Walkthrough guide thanks to Googabooga -
Event Participants: Amber, Illuminata, Forte, Kiel
It starts when you talk to Amber and she mentions that she has been napping a lot. Later talk to Amber while she is near Kiel in front of the Grocery Store. Kiel will be telling her about new supplies Bado got in.
The next day Kiel and Amber will talk again in the same place about Bado's items.
The day after that Kiel, Forte, and Amber will get together to talk in the town square. Amber will faint and you'll all go to the clinic. Amber will wake up and leave. Talk to her and she'll tell you she is having trouble remembering things and that most of the things she doesn't remember happen at night. Amber will hang out in town square all day. Wait until night. Go into your room and you'll get a scene. You'll find out Ambrosia is possessing Amber at night and she invites you to speak with her another night.
The next day wait until night and talk to Amber again when she is in her room. Say you are here to see Ambrosia and not Amber and then you'll get a scene.
Go back the next day and talk to Amber. She'll as to go to the observatory with you. Say that you will. Amber won't listen to what you have to say. Talk to her after the scene and try to talk again. Then go back to your room that night and go towards your bed. Ambrosia will stop by again to talk to you.
The next day talk to Amber. She will ask you to spend the day with Ambrosia. If you accept the "date" will be set for the next day.
Talk to Amber the next day. She'll want to go to the forest with you. Take her to the area with the river and the water fall. You'll get a scene. Keep walking to the next area and you'll get another scene. She'll want to head back after that. Turn and go back to the waterfall area and you'll get another scene.
After that scene talk with Kiel. Go back to the forest and speak with Ambrosia. After that scene go to the deepest part of the forest. You will have to fight a battle so be ready. Once the fight is over the two of you will go back in town and then the sub-event will be over.
Clorica - An Ephemeral Wish Walkthrough guide (Thanks to igarustaK!) :
Got this event by doing the sleep trick, anyway you talk to Clorica one day and she'll say that she wants to go to Bado's to pick out an acessory.
The next day, head down to Bado's for scene, a choice will pop up, but the choices don't matter. So go ahead and choose
The next day, head to the general store. Follow after her after the scene and she'll ask for a date to the Observatory. Say yes
Next day, head to the Observatory. You'll be given a choice, any option is fine.
Next day she'll want to go on another date, choose to go to Porco's place. Once you get to the entrance, Clorica will change her mind, and will want to go to the lake instead. Once there, it'll start to rain, and you're given a choice, pick whatever option.
The next day, you and Vishnal search the town for her (talk to the villagers and Ventuswill if she's there). Once you're done, talk to Vishnal at the town entrance--he's located Clorica outside the town. Head out and you'll see her surrounded by level 240 ants (If you're level isn't around 100+, I suggest lowering the difficulty to Easy). Defeat the ants.
The next day, head to the flowershop. There's a choice during the scene, again it doesn't matter. Head to the clinic next for a scene.
Find Illuminata, and talk to her. You'll get a series of choices. If you want to marry Clorica, pick the obvious choices, and she'll give you items needed to make the engagement ring.
Find Clorica and propose if you're marrying her, or give her an Apple Pie if you're not.
Credit to Daisuke Tsubasa for helping me out with the Lest marriage information Everyone in this thread who has asked questions, helped others or contributed in any way! I <3 you guys If you have any tips, comments, corrections or questions please let me know! [/size]
I would just like to thank you for writing this! It's really nice of you to make a straightforward guide for this game.
You're more than welcome guys! I'm kind of feeling sickish tonight, so I'll be finishing the marriage section tomorrow. Sorry about that. If anyone has any questions about it (if you're at that point) feel free to ask and I should be able to answer them in the meantime~
There are a few prerequisite sub-events that you have to trigger for each character before you can marry them, yeah. I believe the number is different for each character, but I'm not 100% sure on that. There were 2 for Arthur that I needed, but there's only one I believe that you need for Leon and Dylas. Not sure about Kiel or Vishnal, and I THINK Doug has only one, but there's another sub that also might be a prerequisite. It's kind of a pain in the « Mr.Gourmet's hat », in truth.
It's because the whole sub-event system it's extraordinarily random. There's like... 30ish town events (not including spouse or kid subs), and you could seriously trigger half or more of those events before even getting those specific ones that you need for marriage. After you finish the needed sub-events, you THEN have to wait until the game decides to be nice and trigger the actual marriage event. It's all pretty much luck based.
The content in the sub-events is fabulous and I love it, but how you have to go about triggering them is a gigantic pain. Luckily the marriage events are very nice and all but make up for what you have to do to get them.
"I'll remember yooooou, and baby that's forever true you're the one that I'll always miss never thought it would feel like this I'll be there for yooooou, no matter what your goin' through in my heart you'll always be, forever baby I'll remember you"
My 3DS FC is: 2809-8413-3875 (Please pm me before you add me) My skype name is: shannon.obrien8983 (Please PM me) My Fics
Thanks for making this thread Rope! It'll sure to be able to help anyone who gets stuck trying to woo the bachelor/ettes.
Also, Is it true that there is a certain set of subevents for each character that you have to complete before you can marry someone?
It's no problem :D Yeah, unfortunately it is true. I know Arthur's, Leon's and (I believe) Dylas', but I'm not too certain on the others.
Yeah every bachelor/bachelorette has their own sub event you need to complete if you wish to marry them. Thanks for making this Kirie!
Ah, okay. Thanks. Is there any way to tell for certain which ones are the prerequisite subevents? Because if there is I could probably write 'em down for when I go for Vishnal, Kiel, and Doug and put them up here.