Ushi No Tane Forum

GenesisLove wrote:

Fretka wrote: DS/Cute - 5-10 years before IoH/SI
IoH/SI - 5-10 years after DS/Cute. The MT people are already adult and they are married.

I don't think this is true because of a theory I've always had. Taro is your character from DS. I've always thought that because of the identical clothes and his experience with farming. The red haired relations could be from if he married Nami, and that after something like 50 years she died and they left the valley to start anew. Or maybe I'm just crazy.

How would this work with the Mineral Town characters showing up?

Is there specific information in SI/IoH about the Mineral Town Characters? What I mean is definitive proof as to whether or not they are the DS or FoMT characters.

C'mon, Taro isn't Jack and isn't the mc from Snes. The main characters would never be as grumpy as him

Taro most likely is a nod to MCs, but isn't a former MC, in my opinion.

None of these games can take place in the same timeline. Oh, some of them take place in timelines where a version of the events of earlier games played out, in a fashion, but in most cases where characters/their descendants move about, the assumption is always that your character did not marry them/their ancestors.

But you can go start up almost any game, and make that untrue.

For example, let's take the clearest example of descent, SNES and 64. Clearly, the characters from SNES are the parents or grandparents of those in 64: they basically tell you, and all the family trees are nice and trackable.

Except for the 64 protagonist's grandfather. Who did he marry? None of the bachelorettes are related to you -- they would have said something. Therefore, he could not have married any girl from the village.
Ergo, for about 90% of SNES games, Harvest Moon 64 cannot descend from those timelines. The default assumption of SNES (that you will get married, or that you should) erases 64 from existence relative to that timeline.

Most games, it seems make simmilar judgement calls... The games don't exist in continuity with one another because of you, but something like them does exist that way, on occaison.

Deme wrote:Taro most likely is a nod to MCs, but isn't a former MC, in my opinion.

None of these games can take place in the same timeline. Oh, some of them take place in timelines where a version of the events of earlier games played out, in a fashion, but in most cases where characters/their descendants move about, the assumption is always that your character did not marry them/their ancestors.

But you can go start up almost any game, and make that untrue.

For example, let's take the clearest example of descent, SNES and 64. Clearly, the characters from SNES are the parents or grandparents of those in 64: they basically tell you, and all the family trees are nice and trackable.

Except for the 64 protagonist's grandfather. Who did he marry? None of the bachelorettes are related to you -- they would have said something. Therefore, he could not have married any girl from the village.
Ergo, for about 90% of SNES games, Harvest Moon 64 cannot descend from those timelines. The default assumption of SNES (that you will get married, or that you should) erases 64 from existence relative to that timeline.

Most games, it seems make simmilar judgement calls... The games don't exist in continuity with one another because of you, but something like them does exist that way, on occaison.

All games can play out differently than what's actually canon. How many times have you died playing a Legend of Zelda game, or (better yet) Castlevania? The actual gameplay is all gameplay mechanics. Also, not every place has the same stigma we do associated with marrying cousins (edit: Especially rural areas). They may not worry about it.

Aside from that, which would canonically follow SNES? Would it be HM64 or would it be FoMT? In FoMT, you have no relation to anyone there, and let's not forget that DS, SI, and GB all seem based around the FoMT world (events/characters from FoMT impact the first two and a few of the characters from SI travel to GB).

Fretka wrote:C'mon, Taro isn't Jack and isn't the mc from Snes. The main characters would never be as grumpy as him

Maybe he got too much of a shock from his wife's death(if she's dead) because he loved her too much and became a bitter old man. That's always what I imagined anywasy.

LonLon wrote: All games can play out differently than what's actually canon. How many times have you died playing a Legend of Zelda game, or (better yet) Castlevania? The actual gameplay is all gameplay mechanics. Also, not every place has the same stigma we do associated with marrying cousins (edit: Especially rural areas). They may not worry about it.

Aside from that, which would canonically follow SNES? Would it be HM64 or would it be FoMT? In FoMT, you have no relation to anyone there, and let's not forget that DS, SI, and GB all seem based around the FoMT world (events/characters from FoMT impact the first two and a few of the characters from SI travel to GB).

"Game Overs" are different from the actual events in-game. "Game Over" is the cessation of in-game events; they're a failure to create canon. I'd argue that gameplay isn't all mechanics in a game that, for me, derives so much from the writing. I'd have never played HM if it weren't for the characters. I'm not saying that the stories, characters, and places don't connect: but rather that the games, which you yourself shape, do not. I assume alternate universes are involved, with your character acting as a sort of cosmic monkey wrench.

Also, while they don't have any stigma, the people of HM64 generally tell you about the various genetic networks around here; even if they didn't care, they'd let you know, given that they let you know about everyone else.

Also, 64 would totally be the connective point to SNES. They more-or-less tell you so: it's the same name of village, and they are, as I keep saying, pretty direct about telling you who's related to whom, and what sort of people their grandparents were. FoMT has no such connection to SNES. Nor does BTN, which everyone forgets.

I assume that FoMT and 64 take place in totally different, unconnected universes, whereas, for example, one of the branches off the SNES universes (the one that actually can't happen in SNES and thus can only happen if it's not played, where the MC apparently goes and marries someone outside of Flowerbud) creates 64, which may go into ToT. Presumably MM also runs on a parallel track, but it's one that's simmilar to the two universes of StH and SNES. I could probably draw out how I assume this works.

Fretka wrote:C'mon, Taro isn't Jack and isn't the mc from Snes. The main characters would never be as grumpy as him

the Mc doesn't even have a personality. So how would you know if he isn't as grumpy as Taro ? x)

Dougy wrote:

Fretka wrote:C'mon, Taro isn't Jack and isn't the mc from Snes. The main characters would never be as grumpy as him

the Mc doesn't even have a personality. So how would you know if he isn't as grumpy as Taro ? x)

Well, based on what the other characters say, the protaganist is always a good, cheerful and social person. They've said things like "I like your smile, it shows your sincerity" and "You're like the sun, you always light up the room" so you can determine that your character was certainly not grumpy.

Deme wrote:"Game Overs" are different from the actual events in-game. "Game Over" is the cessation of in-game events; they're a failure to create canon. I'd argue that gameplay isn't all mechanics in a game that, for me, derives so much from the writing. I'd have never played HM if it weren't for the characters. I'm not saying that the stories, characters, and places don't connect: but rather that the games, which you yourself shape, do not. I assume alternate universes are involved, with your character acting as a sort of cosmic monkey wrench.

Counter-point: Dawn of Sorrow. Also Chrono Trigger (or really any game with multiple endings. What about KOTOR?).

Deme wrote:Also, while they don't have any stigma, the people of HM64 generally tell you about the various genetic networks around here; even if they didn't care, they'd let you know, given that they let you know about everyone else.

Not necessarily. Keep in mind that the stigma still exists in YOUR mind, and perhaps the game designers didn't want you to rule out a possible marriage candidate because of ideas that you have about that. This also assumes that your character gets married in SNES. It is possible that that is not the canon.

Deme wrote:Also, 64 would totally be the connective point to SNES. They more-or-less tell you so: it's the same name of village, and they are, as I keep saying, pretty direct about telling you who's related to whom, and what sort of people their grandparents were. FoMT has no such connection to SNES. Nor does BTN, which everyone forgets.

You're arguing both that it cannot be and that it must be. That makes no sense.

Anyways, as far as HM64/FoMT goes, those are the same characters, and so wouldn't the same connections exist? Let's not forget that that Ellen is alive in BOTH FoMT and HM64.

The way I see it is this: HM64 and FoMT represent two different potential timelines (a la Zelda). They both canonically follow the events of SNES HM (keep in mind that a lot can change in the 50-60 years between SNES and HM64/FoMT), but do so as two different universes. FoMT then goes on to continue into the DS games.

Although there is the argument that FoMT could follow from the GB HM, BTN from MM, and HM64 from HM SNES. I have only played two of these games (and a little bit of SNES), but from what I understand of them, they could logically follow each other (as well as being very similar to each other). This would mean that three timelines would be necessary. I know that FoMT leads into the DS games, but what are the others? Also, what are the timelines of them (IE DS happens 100 years after FoMT, SI happens a few years after which, and GB happens X years after SI)? That's what this topic was supposed to be about (at least, that was the intention).

One more thing: AWL happens 100 years before DS in the Japanese version. In the American version, it's FoMT that happens 100 years before DS. Does AWL happen at the same time as FoMT, thus making both versions canon? Is there anything in the canon that contradicts this?

GenesisLove wrote:

Dougy wrote:

Fretka wrote:C'mon, Taro isn't Jack and isn't the mc from Snes. The main characters would never be as grumpy as him

the Mc doesn't even have a personality. So how would you know if he isn't as grumpy as Taro ? x)

Well, based on what the other characters say, the protaganist is always a good, cheerful and social person. They've said things like "I like your smile, it shows your sincerity" and "You're like the sun, you always light up the room" so you can determine that your character was certainly not grumpy.

maybe they were drunk? O: -shot-
well he could've become grumpy over time....:I

I always saw it this way:

A(n)WL(SE), (M)FoMT- Same time period.
HM:DS (Cute)-Same time period as the two previous, just a replication-it sure seems to fit even more, when you consider the fact that you get to Mineral Town through connection to the game (M)FoMT from another console(either DS or gameboy(if it's possible via gameboy(sp)). Just as you do with A(n)WL(SE).
MM- ?? I have NO idea. I know they used some really, really old characters from early in the HM series-otherwise almost never, if ever, seen since MM. But they could use the excuse that the characters just look « Puppy Doodoo » loads like said older characters and just HAPPEN to have the same or similar name. This sort of works with the concept of the ever-immortal Elli/Ellen/Ell__. Whom has been in quite a few games. Even Renee, in ToT/AP, looks a « Puppy Doodoo » load and is similar to some of the versions of Ell__. Who ALSO was in MM.
Maybe MM is it's own, completely separate dimension-combining characters from the past. |D -shot-
Otherwise, I assume it's before A(n)WL(SE), (M)FoMT, etc. and around the time of N64 or a little after-DESPITE the fact that the production of the game came after A(n)WL(SE) and (M)FoMT.

I assume that the games like N64 and previous in production are in times also previous in time, in setting, to some later games(such as A(n)WL(SE)).

On the note of Taro-I still believe he's Jack. Isn't Taro a LITTLE happy?
And plus, he's an old man(follows stereotypes, xD -shot-)-and some people DO get grouchy over time. It's not impossible for character development, even if HM typically, majorly lacks it nowadays.
If it's the case, then SI/IoH are up to 100 years after the games such as A(n)WL(SE) and all that.

LonLon wrote:
Counter-point: Dawn of Sorrow. Also Chrono Trigger (or really any game with multiple endings. What about KOTOR?).

Multiple endings is the entire point of my theory. Chrono Trigger has Chrono Cross, which says that, actually, all your endings are in fact the creation of alternate futures. Alternate endings, equally valid, means that there are alternate canons, some of which lead to sequels, some of which do not.

LonLon wrote:
Not necessarily. Keep in mind that the stigma still exists in YOUR mind, and perhaps the game designers didn't want you to rule out a possible marriage candidate because of ideas that you have about that. This also assumes that your character gets married in SNES. It is possible that that is not the canon.

Right. But when you play and get married, it becomes the canon ending of your playthrough, even if it isn't the ending that's needed to continue to the 64 future.

LonLon wrote:
You're arguing both that it cannot be and that it must be. That makes no sense.

Actually, I'm arguing that it can be possible...But that it isn't always, so it doesn't always happen. The default notion of SNES-the-game (as opposed to SNES-the-point-in-timeline) is that the 64 future doesn't happen. The default assumption of 64-the-game (as opposed to 64-the-point-in-timeline) is that SNES-the-game does not happen, but that SNES-the-point-in-timeline does.

My idea, basically, is that the games themselves are not realities that lead to the other games, but that for every game there's an alternate offshoot where the game doesn't happen (but, perhaps, something like it does), and that those universes lead to other games. I admit, it's a bit hard to wrap one's head around, and it's very much a matter of splitting hairs.

LonLon wrote: Anyways, as far as HM64/FoMT goes, those are the same characters, and so wouldn't the same connections exist? Let's not forget that that Ellen is alive in BOTH FoMT and HM64.

Ooh, you just stepped on a sore spot with me... Because while they have the same names and physical appearances, I cannot state this enough: they. are. not. the. same. characters. And, more importantly, they don't have the same families. Not having the same families means that all assumptions that they have the same heritages is absolutely out the window.

LonLon wrote: The way I see it is this: HM64 and FoMT represent two different potential timelines (a la Zelda). They both canonically follow the events of SNES HM (keep in mind that a lot can change in the 50-60 years between SNES and HM64/FoMT), but do so as two different universes. FoMT then goes on to continue into the DS games.

Although there is the argument that FoMT could follow from the GB HM, BTN from MM, and HM64 from HM SNES. I have only played two of these games (and a little bit of SNES), but from what I understand of them, they could logically follow each other (as well as being very similar to each other). This would mean that three timelines would be necessary. I know that FoMT leads into the DS games, but what are the others? Also, what are the timelines of them (IE DS happens 100 years after FoMT, SI happens a few years after which, and GB happens X years after SI)? That's what this topic was supposed to be about (at least, that was the intention).

I don't see why BTN would follow from MM-in-time. Having played both, the two games have nothing to do with one another. Also, I see no reason to tie the Gameboy HMs in with FoMT, since they don't have anything to do with one another to my recollection. SI and IoH most likely just exist in slightly parallell realities, both set a little after FoMT-in-time, in my book...Grand Bazaar could come from either of those points in the timeline, since both feature Pierre, since we have no specifics...Or he's an entirely different Pierre.

LonLon wrote: One more thing: AWL happens 100 years before DS in the Japanese version. In the American version, it's FoMT that happens 100 years before DS. Does AWL happen at the same time as FoMT, thus making both versions canon? Is there anything in the canon that contradicts this?

Both realities, if I recall, can communicate with FoMT-the-point-in-time via the game cartridge. That makes the whole thing...rather complicated. I suspect that this problem may not be entirely fixable.

Deme wrote:

LonLon wrote: One more thing: AWL happens 100 years before DS in the Japanese version. In the American version, it's FoMT that happens 100 years before DS. Does AWL happen at the same time as FoMT, thus making both versions canon? Is there anything in the canon that contradicts this?

Both realities, if I recall, can communicate with FoMT-the-point-in-time via the game cartridge. That makes the whole thing...rather complicated. I suspect that this problem may not be entirely fixable.

My theory:

HM:DS (Cute)-Same time period as the two previous, just a replication-it sure seems to fit even more, when you consider the fact that you get to Mineral Town through connection to the game (M)FoMT from another console(either DS or gameboy(if it's possible via gameboy(sp)). Just as you do with A(n)WL(SE).

It wouldn't make any sense that ALL The characters are completely the same, both in Mineral Town AND Forget-Me-Not Valley-without any aging or changes to them or the town, and have HM:DS Cute be 100 years after.
Seriously, where are you guys getting this "100 Years After AWL/FoMT shiz from? I don't understand the logic. >w>;

In my mind:
SNES&STH (the homeland ISN'T saved so they all move to Flowerbud) -> MM -> HM64&ToT
I mean, I've made it so it make sense in my mind.
Heck, I made some family trees way back when.
http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q166 ... Popuri.jpg
http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q166 ... g&newest=1
http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q166 ... fMaria.jpg

For handhelds, all I know and care about is AWL&FoMT -> (100 years later) HMDS.
IoH and the others are just off on their own.

May wrote:In my mind:
SNES&STH (the homeland ISN'T saved so they all move to Flowerbud) -> MM -> HM64&ToT
I mean, I've made it so it make sense in my mind.
Heck, I made some family trees way back when.
http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q166 ... Popuri.jpg
http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q166 ... g&newest=1
http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q166 ... fMaria.jpg

For handhelds, all I know and care about is AWL&FoMT -> (100 years later) HMDS.
IoH and the others are just off on their own.

Cool! o.o

Can you post bigger images? ><